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Variants of the Surname spelling
Ceir, Cere, Cire, CYR, Cyre, Cyrs, Cyrus, De Serre, De Sire, De Sirré, Le Sars, Le Siers, Le Sire, Le Sor(e), Le Sot, Le Sueur, Le Syr, Leisure, Lesiers, Leziers, Liesure, Lozier, Lussier, Saer, Saier, Sayer, Sayers, Sayre, Sayres, Sear, Seare, Sears, Seears, Seer, Seere, Seers, Seir, Sere, Serre, Sias, Sier, Siers, Sieur, SIRE, SIRRE, Soares, St. Cyr, Sueur, Suire, Suires, Sutor, Syar, Syars, Syas, Syer, Syers, Syr, Syre, Von Suire, Zaher, Zier
The following is reproduced (with thanks) from Claude L. Cyr's "The Origins of the Cyr Name" published in "The Cyr Legacy" Book, on the occasion of the CYR FAMILY REUNION held in Madawaska, Maine in July 1981.
A Cyr, is a Sire, is a Cire, is a Cyre and, by any other spelling, is still a CYR!
More Variations of the Name... and why?
The hardest part for most folks to get their head around is that, virtually every version of the name, both in Canada and the USA, were totally made up...........upon landing.
Most of the original Americans are actually Sayres........
A few are Irish Seers.................
There are a few La Rochelle Suires........
a few Scottish Cyrus......
some London England Sears.........(morphed from Le Syr)
the odd Lesiers....Leziers......or Leisure as they spell it now.....
So far in Canada there is Suire and LeSire......Lozier.......LeSueur.........St. Cyr, (the "dit name" for the Deshaies in Quebec).
...and of course we are really not certain if Pierre was really a Sire!
Only much later in history did people from the south of France actually named St. Cyr (the "dit name" for the Deshaies in Quebec), migrate.
In every case though: it refers to a trade......cloth weavers; cloth merchants; salters; builders; shoe makers; sheep farmers
Never once have I found an example of a true Sire family where it meant anything even close to Lord or Noble: as a last name........
The Title Sire or Sieur : has an Italian base.......it didn't appear in France to any extent until well into the 1200's...........and it nearly always referred to a Knight........someone usually without land who was in service of a landed noble........and perhaps later received land for service: but not at the highest levels. A junior Knight was an Esquire........ Occasionally below the level of Knight we find Homme Noble......and the odd Sire with that. This was usually a person with merchant status: or legal profession etc.
But there is no case where Sire was not followed by De: indicating the geography of what he was Sire of..........
In France back then: social class was so structured it was an offence to mistate your true position..........you had your role in life and you never moved up or down...........for hundreds of years: what your family was: is what you were.
No man would dare say he was a Sire if he was not...........
Of course St. Cyr (the "dit name" for the Deshaies in Quebec), was something entirely different: in this case Cyr was a first name: from the Greek Quiricus.... (Celts could not pronounce the letter Q... thus the soft C sound)
This is where Cyr (as in the Greek version of the Saint) and Sire... the noble title and Sueur or Sire is actually Sutor.
Starts to get confusing in France; And, consider the following..........
1. In the British Isles:
Sire and versions of it are from the old Persian meaning 'magical'.........a purely Celt term by then, either brought in by direct migration, or the Norse......
2. In Ireland:
it is actually Saier (for magical); Saer (for free).
3. Ireland and Britain did not share similar cultures, languages or religions. Only Ireland and Brittany did. So we could expect when we find Sirre in Brittany (as we do), that it refers to the Irish version.
4. Which brings us to North America; where we get all these versions melting into one big Sire pot, with spellings changing, even within families!
For thousands of years people with the last name that sounded like SEARS or SIRE or SAYER, all worked in the silk weaving/cloth trades: (i.e. weavers; merchants etc).
SERES SURNAME: The SERES were an ancient Asian people who first brought silk from the far-east, to the Greeks. This created the Greek word SERICOS...and the Latin word SERICA which was the root of the word SAGUM, or woolen cloak. The Latin word SERIUS, is the backbone of the word Sieur or Segneiur/Seigneur or Sire/Sir, as the English used it.
LE SUEUR SURNAME: Le Sueur on the other hand comes from the Latin word SUTOR....one who makes things from patterns. (i.e. cloth, shoes, iron etc). Le Sueur was not spelled Sieur however, occasionally one does see the spelling LeSieur.(Note LEISURE it is a DNA mutant variation).
So, it is easy to see how the two names sounded similar and were somewhat interchangeable, as time went by.
SERRE SURNAME: The Serre: on the other hand comes from SERITOR the goddess of farming. It was also spelled CERES and is/was the backbone of words like cereal. However most older French versions of the name, come with the accent on the last "e" and should be pronounced SERAY.
All three of the above surnames, can be easily confused with one another.
One really needs to understand that in 1600's in France, the cloth trade was as vital to the economy (as automobile production is presently, in Detroit, Michigan). More people worked in the cloth industry, than any other. Thus the reason the SERES surname is common in regions like Amiens, which was the hub of the cloth industries.
CYR SURNAME: The Cyr is a total fabrication of new world priests because, having been trained in monasteries and the Royal Courts, our surname sounded like that, to them. What they knew was that Saints and they, were worlds-away from exposure to trade workers. It is just pure fantasy to believe that the surname Cyr is anything but a North American aberration, as it nearly never existed as a surname in France until the very late 1700's and, in fact, only appeared to persons who added it to their surname such as a geographical location of the parish they lived in (i.e. La Rose de St. Cyr). There are no known persons identified in the 1600's (or earlier) in France, who used Cyr as a last name.
The following is reproduced (with thanks) from the source notes provided me by my uncle Roch Cyr, who obtained them from his good friend Leo G. Cyr.
A final word needs to be said about the CYR family name, variously spelled Sire, Cire, Syre, Cyre and Cyr. Church and civil records in Acadia contained these and other random spellings, dictated more often by recorder's degree of familiarity with the local scene, than anything else. Our name came from France as Sire. Its metamorphosis to Cyr was gradual and a rather long time in developing. Why did Cyr prevail? My own theory is put forth for what it's worth. Cyr was probably more wisely known than Sire in the 18th century. There was an elite school for girls at Versailles, widely known as l'Academie St. Cyr. Subsequently, St. Cyr (the "dit name" for the Deshaies in Quebec), became widely known as the West Point of France. Sire and Cyr are pronounced exactly alike in French; cire. I suggest that missionaries newly arrived from France, on hearing the family name at the baptismal font in Beaubassin, thought of St. Cyr (the "dit name" for the Deshaies in Quebec) and began to favor that spelling. This process took place over a period of time when there was a dearth of education among the Acadians. The spelling of their name was, so to speak, taken out of their hands. A current fad for spelling names in various ways, may have contributed to the process. The actual experience of our particular branch of the family, was typical:
PIERRE (first generation) appeared in the 1671 census of Acadia, as Pierre SIRRE. We may assume that, as a gunsmith schooled in France, he was able to spell his name. [Added note from Yvon, December 2011... we cannot be certain that Pierre was from France and early DNA tests, suggest he may in fact have Flemish roots. Flemish is the territorial name for the Dutch language spoken in historic Flanders, a region mostly comprising the northern part of Belgium, but also including a southern part of the Netherlands and a small area of northern France].He gave it as he had spelled it in France. Sire was a name indigenous to northwestern France.
Photocopy of authentic signature of Pierre [Sire] Sirre, provided by Stephen A. White of the University of Moncton. Original document is contained in the Leneuf Papers stored at the Canadian National Archives in Ottawa, Ontario.
JEAN (second generation) signed Jean SIRE in 1715 as one of the commissioners reporting to the British the decision of the Beaubassin population, in regard to taking the oath of allegiance to George II.
JEAN-BAPTISTE (third generation) appeared as Jean SIRE in the Beaubassin church record of his marriage January 26, 1734; and as Jean SYR in a list dated August 12, 1763, of prisoners on the St. John River. An appeal that he and his sons addressed to the Governor of Canada in 1784, reveals that they were unable to sign. The illiteracy of their fugitive existence (since the burning of Beaubassin in 1750), was becoming apparent. In 1792, a St. Basil (New Brunswick) record referred to him as "feu Jean SIR".
PAUL'S (fourth generation) baptismal record at Beaubassin, referred to him as Paul CYRE in 1741. The Studholme Report of 1783, listed him as Paul CIRE. The United States did not take a census of Madawaska in 1790, 1800 or 1810, thereby sparing the name considerable mutilation. He was buried as Paul CYR in 1812.
PAUL'S (fifth generation) baptismal record at St. Basil, referred to him as the son of Paul SYR. The U.S. census of 1820 was not a nominal census in Madawaska. His marriage record at St. Basil referred to him as Paul CYR in 1822. U.S. censuses called him Paul CERE in 1830; Paul CYR in 1840; Paul CROCK in 1850; Paul CYR in 1860. His burial record in 1865, called him Paul CYR.
ALEXIS (sixth generation) was described in the 1860 U.S. census as Alexander, the son of Paul CROCK, but subsequently during his lifetime, the name settled-down to CYR (I like to think that, after all these years, they finally 'got it right' :-) The French pronunciation (cire) remained constant in Madawaska, but with the increasing use of English in the area, it has been anglicized (like the English word "seer"), including all the frequent aberrations sich as "cur" and "cry".
My theory is not intended to suggest that we had any connection with the St. Cyr (the "dit name" for the DeShaie/Deshaies in Quebec) family. There was none. The Cyrs of Madawaska are all descendants of JEAN-BAPTISTE SIRE, one of the grandsons of first-generation PIERRE SIRE of Acadia. They are _not_ descendants of first-generation Louis Sire of Acadia, to whom goes the honor of being the progenitor of Louis (Cyprien-Noé) Cyr (1863 -1912) of Napierville, Quebec, the "strongest man in the world".
In his excellent book, the 'History of the Cajuns', the author Alex Loya states...
"Cyr researchers Claude and Yvon Cyr have correctly concluded that Cyr denotes a location of origin in the area of Brittany and Normandy, being associated with the Greek word meaning 'teacher' and also 'one who appears Lordly'. The fact that I found the villages of Sier and Sire etc. in the area of the Mont de La Loya near Savoy, on the other side of France from Brittany and Normandy, and its root Etruscan words Ceer, Cere, Sires, Sere, respectively meaning the Etruscan city of Caere, bewail, cherry and 'I join', does not in any way contradict Claude and Yvon Cyr's research, rather, it compliments it and confirms the accuracy of their research when they conclude...
The family name Cyr is one of the oldest Norman French names and comes from the borders of Normandy and Brittany. It is recorded in history to the year 1000".
What I found regarding the name Cyr conclusively confirms that it is one of the oldest Norman French names. Conversely, Claude Cyr's finding confirms the Etruscan root of Cyr, since the Etruscans are one of the oldest foundational cultures of France. There is no contradiction in the meanings they found through their research to the Norman period and the meanings I found through my research to the Etruscan period 1,500 years earlier, words develop over the years to produce names. In the case of Cyr, it could have started with the Etruscans with, for example, the establishment of an Etruscan settlement by a field of cherries, thus the Etruscan meaning of Ceer, the Etruscan city. These cherries, thus the Etruscan meaning of "cherry", may have been used in some sort of funeral tradition, thus the Etruscan meaning of "bewail", which mourners joined in... thus the Etruscan association of "I join". Over one thousand five hundred years later among Etruscan who spread through France and became part of the Norman population, these Cyr ancestors taught, perhaps some form of this old Etruscan funeral tradition to their descendants, teaching them to, in their mourning, behave honorably and with dignity, thus the seemingly unrelated meanings of "teacher" and "one who behaves Lordly" among the Norman Cyrs. There is no contradiction, rather there is development.
Furthermore, there is no contradiction in that Claude and Yvon Cyr conclude Cyr is Norman from the area of Brittany and Normandy and I conclude it is Etruscan from the area of Savoy because their research takes them to the Norman period circa, as they say, the years 1000 AD, while my research takes it to the Etruscan period of France, at least 1,500 years earlier."
Closing Notes: The "ETRUSCANS were the people that dominated Italy before the Romans. Their empire was composed of a loose confederation of 12 major cities in the area of present day Tuscany and central Italy, including cities of Felatri, Arretium, Curtun, Fufluna, Vetluna, Clevsin Perusia, Velch, Velzna, Tarchna, Caisra (or Ceer) and Veii, plus a few other minor cities as far north as the Po River in Italy and as far south as Campania. Rome itself was under Etruscan rule before the rise of the Romans. Corsica was under Etruscan rule, and there is evidence that neighbouring Sardinia was, as well. It is believed that the Etruscans founded cities as far away as Tarragona in Spain.
The Etruscans rose to power circa 1,200 B.C., and reached their zenith circa 800 B.C. They remained one of the most powerful nations of antiquity until their city of Veii was sacked by the Romans, who had themselves been under Etruscan rule, circa 396 B.C. and they had been totally assimilated by the Romans by the year 100 B.C. Unfortunately, they did not leave written history; what is known about them is known largely by the writing of Greek and Latin historians and by archeological evidence. Their origin was a mystery and was already a subject of debate by the 5th century B.C. when Herodotus, a Greek historian known as the Father of History, theorized regarding the origin of the ancient Etruscans that they had come to Italian Peninsula from the area of Lydia in Asia Minor. He based his belief on certain legends that said that the Etruscans had been among the ancient Sea Peoples and had come from the area of Lydia, which is found in the Aegean Sea by Greece and Turkey, having arrived to the Italian Peninsula after a failed attempt to invade Egypt. Others believed that they came to the Italian Peninsula with the rest of the Indo-European that populated the rest of Europe. Dionysius of Halicarnassus, who wrote a response to Herodotus' theory circa the 1st century B.C., strongly believed that the Etruscans did not migrate from anywhere but, rather, that they were the oldest inhabitants native of the Italian Peninsula known as the Villanovan Culture, the cavemen of Italy. Dionysius based his view and his response to Herodotus on the fact that the Etruscans did not follow the same laws, did not worship the same gods, did not use the same institutions and did not speak the same language as the Lydians did. According to Dionysius, all the evidence pointed to their origin being within the Italian Peninsula from time immemorial. After doing extensive research, I (Alex Loya) agree with Dionysius, although it is evident that Lydian and other Indo-European elements contributed to the formation of the Etruscan nation, mostly by way of commerce."
DNA et al research, conducted by Suzanne Sears on the Cyr/Sears surname
Contrary to the original posting regarding Andre Syre, provided me by Carole Michaud and posted on my http://www.acadian.org/asyre.html , Andre WAS NOT THE BROTHER of Pierre Sire and this has now been proven by DNA, according to Suzanne Sears who stated the following in her email message(s) to me on January 17-18, 2010:
Suzanne's Message # 1:
"A note to tell you:
The DNA tests have arrived
to compare the blood of the two men: Pierre and Andre
Pierre Sirre Acadia and Andre Syre Quebec are not related in any way.
Suzanne's Message # 2:
The only thing Pierre and Andre have in common is the same ancient Celt tribe:
with the slight possibility of a common ancestor up to around 1400 AD
Deeper DNA testing did show no family relationship for around 1,000 years.......
Andre clearly spelled his name Andre Le Syre: and clearly identified his home town as Fontenay in his labour contract:
However: his parental details don't quite line up: thus we are hunting him as if from start....
As for Pierre:.........there is nearly zero possibly he is from Bourgeil.....or Tours or Loire Valley.......
This is some old speculation based on rumours that the original financiers like D'Aulnay brought in people from his fief.........which he clearly did.......
But he also drew heavily on people from the north like Perche and at least 20 from the south Toulouse regions.
All the Sire clans are being quickly identified:
Bourgeil was searched by their archivist and there is not a single Sire family in the region: my research repeats these findings.
The likelihood is that Pierre is Norman.........and probably from Belgium/Dieppe/ to Dunkirk regions.........given that he chose to spell it Sirre and his handwriting is very Norman Gothic merchant in style..............Sirre being a Dutch way to spell it........
And contrary to popular belief: names that got spelled incorrectly in Canada by priests unfamiliar with their parishioners: did not do so in France where they had historical relationships over time with families:...........thus the spellings are very much "on purpose" and tend to stand over hundreds of years......
His signature as Sirre: leaves little doubt to his heritage.
We are just now completely a "tour" if you will of the Belgic border regions on a hunt for him..........and actually don't expect it to take long to find him if he was ever there.......
The other very real possibility is that he was MicMac.........
Hope you are enjoying this as much as we are: this hunt! We won't stop until we find him!
Suzanne's Message # 3:
The earliest Le Syre family in Poitou seems to be around the year 1125 with Gillemi Le Syre: who clearly was a Catalan: Spanish.............and the Le Syre a clear reference to Saint Syre as they wrote it quite often.
Pierre Sirre however uses a Dutch/Norman spelling. However there were just a few in La Rochelle, nearly zero in all the rest of France; but huge numbers in Luxembourg, Belgium and Holland........
And the last French ships to Canada before the expulsion were mainly from Dieppe.........during the years Pierre would likely have come over.
Suzanne's Message # 4:
And that is not all!
Pierre's DNA ONLY links up to 3 families in the world: all of them direct blood ancestors to William the Conqueror..........
All 3 of them with blood origins from a small spot of Caen to Dieppe.........two near perfect matches.........
That is clearly where his ancestors came from:
Danish Vikings to Normandy
But what makes on crazy: is the name spelled Sirre as he did........
it matches NOTHING related to any Syre family in France: with only one left to check out.......
Either he wrote it that way on purpose: to throw off his identity or he simply made a spelling mistake:
(which is only one of 6 men in Port Royal who could write their own names seems unlikely)
or he wasn't from France directly at all.......
the name Sirre is clearly Dutch: but his DNA is not.........
So: either he was a Huguenot living in London already..........and came over something like the Melancons did.............
he was living in New England already with the Dutch..........as many French were doing.......thus linking him to Thomas Temple Gov. of Boston and Acadia........
he was a Metis:..........and didn't know how to spell his name.........historically.......
but I can't find a source for him to get that kind of education to write that way:
no priestly schools.........
Sirre was never pronounced as Seer: always as Sur or Sirr.........
it is clearly Norman and not the La Rochelle Seer sound.....of Le Syre.......
Sirre as a name is making me nuts: it just doesn't come from France.........
Suzanne's Message # 5:
Up all night: that Sirre thing making me nuts:
so went back to his handwriting: and realized upon review the way he wrote the P in Pierre was only used in Northern France and only by scribes for expensive works........thus Pierre could never have learned that as a Metis........
The more I chased the handwriting the more it started to come together: and I went back over it all to make the pieces fit:
only one place on earth that all lined up and that was in Rouen region.
(being the centre of making ammunition for France and the biggest metal forges etc in mainland France)
then I briefly recalled the Le Seuer family I had reviewed briefly a long time ago:
Looking again: I finally got it!
A family that only ever used the name Seur as a family name from the beginning of Norman history: who were relatives of William the Conqueror..........
Nearly all of this entire family was chased out due to the religious wars:
many many of this family ended up in London for awhile...........where the name was spelled Sirr and Surr.....=Sirre
And of whom tons of them ended up in Boston.............
That is the only Sire story that fits every piece of Pierre
He can be everything we know about him... if he comes from this family.
Suzanne's Message # 6:
(April 3, 2010)
I have sent you a lot of data: and it is confusing: and a few have asked for a list of what is truly known: so I thought I would send you a summary:
A) Sirre as Pierre wrote it is not a legitimate French family surname: then or now in France
B) The only known family to write their name as Sirre at any time in history were the LeSueur family of Abbeville, France.
C) Sirre was the name of a village for a short period of time: Cierrey in Normandy today
D) Sirre is a common Dutch and English spelling for LeSueur.
E) The DNA is 95% match to Abraham (De la) Haye of Connecticut in the early 1600.s
meaning common male ancestry within the last 300 years
(who most commonly wrote it as Hase)
F) Sirre is only pronounced as one pure Sear sound when it comes into contact with English or Germanic cultures..........otherwise it is Sur-ah or Sur-ay
-either Pierres descendents lost the true sound of his name
-he came to Acadia via New England or related channels
G) The DNA is a 80-95% close match to 10 Norman surnames with direct lineages to Rollo the Viking in Normandy
-the Dela Hayes are in this list
H) The DNA is found anciently only in the Cotentin to the north, Alencon to the west, Nonancourt to the south and Abbeville to the east: centred at Rouen.
I) A DNA strong match to a different surname is indicative of a name change: it is highly possible Sirre is a dit name.
J) LeSueurs and Delahayes frequently intermarried and travelled in the same social circles and the profession of both was Sires...........(with the exception of a 2nd lineage of unrelated LeSueurs)
K) Both LeSueurs and Delahayes were Huguenot Protestants chased out of France to Holland, Germany, Switzerland and England...........and most who came to New England caught their ships out of England..........and spent at least 6 months there
L) Delahaye is most often a title and carries another surname in front of it: as in John Smith...Dela Haye
We have one viable Canadian candidate for Pierre:
Pierre de la Haye: B. 1644, Carignan Soldier: Quebec: abjures Aug 24, 1665
origin unknown: fate unknown.
-right age, right profession, right time in history, right place, right DNA, right story........
most of the data presents that Pierre likely came to Acadia via New England route.
Also: I should add, there were several LeSueur families living in New England before Pierre arrived in the new world as well.
Both DelaHaye and LeSueurs lived in New England prior to 1700 AD and were associated with the Dutch Reform churches...........a strong hint that they had been in Holland during exile..........traveling to England for transport
.........which as I mentioned previously, was not a quick process..........it took time to make those arrangements and thus some records of these people exist in England as well..
there was a small and active French culture in New England............but who clearly Anglicized themselves quite a bit: such as the Melansons..........
Otherwise, most worship went on in the reform churches and most records still exist today and need to be searched.........as Sirre would be the preferred way of spelling LeSueur for the Dutch and English.
There remains only a few speculative possibilities as to how Pierre got to Acadia other than mentioned already:............
but no evidence at all to support any of these theories..........unlike the 2 viable theories listed earlier............
-possibly via Jean Talon and Nicholas Denys in their efforts to establish a mining industry from 1666 onwards: they brought over 150+ men from Dieppe..........the venture failed and what became of the men is hard to say................but in general: labourers are not consistent with Pierres level of education
-possibly one of the 9 men brought to Gaspe by Talon during 1666 region from Nantes to kick start a fishing industry ...........this too failed...........
-one of Denys own soldiers: after he was burned out in 1668......the men were released. Denys did make contracts for men: but so far, none are found for Pierre.
-Le Borgne brought over 20 men engageé.........for Acadia in 1668 when he thought he was getting Acadia back............he did not........so did the men stay or go back.........no one knows.....but again: it is unlikely Pierre would need to sign an engageé contract........and we should have found it by now anyway..............
- 1 Belgian Swiss engineer brought to inspect Gaspe for minerals..........by Talon......
Talon, Denys and LeBorgne were in the habit of making contracts for all the men they brought over: since we do not know of any for Pierre, it makes the possibility lower that Pierre came this way to Acadia............or else a better search is needed.
LeSueur in Canada is the same name as Lizot and Lizotte and Lozier.....just a different spelling.....so unless Pierre is hiding in plain sight under another version of the name, entrance to Acadia via Quebec is possible, but improbable.
He would be nearly the only man in all of Quebec to come and never once cross paths with another citizen: never bought anything, never lived anywhere..........never went to church and took confirmation:.....never a witness at any event.............never seen by any of the only 3,000 people living there.
The best explanation is that he never was anywhere else in Canada but Acadia, where indeed he did leave a record............and that he came either as a discharged unknown Carignan soldier or through New England.
This is what is known so far.
Suzanne's Message # 7:
(April 3, 2010)
The newest information on Pierre and potential DNA matches is this:
We had confirmed that on a primary level Pierre was a perfect 12 out of 12 match to the SIRART family of Martainville, Normandy
SIRART by the way means Tax Collector: Not Lord
We were also able to trace an entire lineage in the same or simiilar region to the Suhart family also known as SUHARD.........and SUARD...........
This was a very ancient and illustrious Norman clan originating family wise from the Cotentin.....and probably pre dating Rollo.........of the Vikings living there about 100 years prior...........but kin to Rollo.....if we go by family associations.
SUARD seems to be the most ancient version; and we find the De Hemez family: Constable of Normandy and the SUHARDS..........as constant companions and witnesses to charters of Kings etc.
Now we know the SIRART family ended up with massive land grants in Wales.............
We know the SUHART family had the same story........
but one lineage of the SUHARTs ended up with land in Cornwall...........
And oddly enough, we soon find the spelling SEUARE..........which morphs over time to LE SUUYRE........and Le SYEARE.........quickly becoming the name Le Syr.........
Now even more astonishing is that Pierre matches these SEUARE at 18 out of 20 markers.......that is an astonishingly strong connection for a difference in time of 1,000 years
So I think we can safely say: that SIRARTS AND SUARDS AND SUHARTS are one and the same:
since Pierre matches both genetically............
And I think there is little doubt any more that he really was a Sirre of some kind
What was left in France in his lifetime was this:
SIRART: very very little: and mainly only in Paris. .....a tiny bit in Normandy
SUHARD: big lineage all over Normandy of very high standing: almost all nobles
LeSueur:..........by far the biggest number......of 2 social classes: one noble and one trades.....do we interpret Le Seuare in Cornwall as the same thing?
that I dont know yet..
We can take the LeSires of Dieppe to Amiens to Dunkirk out of this equation for now:
we dont have evidence to make them fit in at this time
and these as well seem to be of at least 2 distinct lineages.
(This being the probable lineage of Louis LeSire of Acadia)
The DNA, the history of Acadia, the history of Normandy, Pierres trade and handwriting:
makes it clear:
he is either a SUHORD (or SIRART -same thing) or a LeSUEUR.............
Now to find out which!
But I feel confident that the search for what is the familial link for Pierre via his DNA and surname is satisfied.
Suzanne's Message # 7:
(April 3, 2010)
I would take LeSueur off the table altogether:
but Suhart/Suhard and Seuare and LeSueur sound too close..........
And we know for a fact one LeSueur lineage used Sirre..............as the spelling
And in fact this one noble lineage of LeSueurs indeed have a missing Pierre in their records
..........of a similar age...........who drops off their ancestral charts: outcome unknown.
So even though we know for sure he is a Suhart.........Suhard..........Seuare..........we have to hang on to LeSueur for awhile too.....
Plus LeSueur is a known Boston family: so a viable way into Acadia...
But from all the hundreds of variations of the name Sire: we have narrowed it down to 2
Took 3 years............lol.............but we are getting close to locking him in.......
The one thing that still has to stay on the table too: is the possibility that he was Peter Sirre out of Bristol, Dover or London...........
and made his way to Boston just as the Melancons did............
because Sirre is such a British spelling.............
But the finish line is getting closer!
Suzanne's Message # 8:
(April 15, 2010)
Just a bit of background on the LeSires:
They do not exist in Normandy prior to 1400 Ad as a spelling:
There are three distinct branches:
1) one Belgic:.........Walloon:......primarily:......who were master iron workers, cutters, metalworkers......brought into Amiens regions to help build the massive cathedrals of Paris and areas in the early 1100s........
2) LeSires from the word Sutor: or shoemakers..........hard to argue if they were the same as the Belgian LeSires........only DNA would tell us..............because the term really referred to pattern matter more than shoes or metal..............using a pattern was the key element
These are seemingly the backbone of most of the LeSires of Amiens and Picardy...........w
3) Norman: from the Lisures............who took their name from the Lyon Foret in south eastern Normandy.............the name of the River...........Lieger or something like that:
this is also the backbone of the family name Leger...........this word meaning STREAM
These LeSires are originally found primarily in Dieppe Caen...........and only later in Rouen
What is interesting: is that in no case does the family name Sire by itself exist anywhere in northern France at all................
and in every case: it never referred to the term LORD...........or true Sire...........indeed the LeSueurs were Sires as were the Suhards............and the Lisures..........
But the last name was no reference to this title.
We hope to have a Louis DNA sample soon to add in.
We have also cleared up another Sire profile in the French Heritage DNA project:
one showing the ancestor Vincent Sire of Boulogne sur Mer.............it turns out to be incorrect
Instead this Sire is actually one of the Sayers of Bedfordshire England..........and a near perfect match to the Sears of Missouri USA.............
Looking for Sires is a gruelling job.....or I should say: sorting them out........lol
SPECIAL ANNOUNCEMENT TO ALL CYR-SEARS ET AL DESCENDANTS
August 20, 2010
In an effort to "write the final chapter" on the origin of our first ancestor Pierre and at the suggestion of Suzanne Sears, I have today decided to have my personal DNA tested so as to, once and for all, determine the origin of Pierre Sire!
For those Cyr-Sears individuals who might consider DNA testing, the process is relatively simple. I personally requested my DNA kit from Family Tree DNA which will be provided at a "group discount" rate. Won't you 'partner' with Suzanne and I to help us write Pierre Sire's final chapter by having your own Cyr-Sears DNA tested? You can get all the pertinent information, by connecting to World Families Net.
Just so you know, I personally chose the Y-DNA67 male-specific test since it includes the most markers. My results will identify the ethnic and geographic origin of the paternal line. It includes a balanced panel of sixty-seven Y-chromosome Short Tandem Repeat, STR, markers. The additional markers refine the predicted time period in which two individuals are related and eliminate unrelated matches. A perfect match at sixty-seven markers indicates a common ancestor in very recent times. This is the ideal test for matching if a break in the paper trail, such as an adoption, is known or suspected. A haplogroup is determined and backed by the Family Tree SNP Assurance Program. When another person shows identical results within the database, if both parties have signed the Family Tree DNA Release Form, then Family Tree will inform them of the match. The customer will also receive a certificate and report describing the testing process and the meaning of sixty-seven marker matches.
After I made the decision to have my own DNA tested, I asked Suzanne to provide me a summary of her research and DNA involvement to post here.
Suzanne's Message # 9:
(August 22, 2010)
My search began with a question of "Who are We".......from my daughter.
Thus I asked my father: Bill Sears of Edmunston, NB...........I had not known that he and his uncle John Sears had already been working on this, years previously.
They had determined that they were of the John Sears of 1860AD lineage: tracking back all the way to Jean Baptiste Senior: first to settle in northern NB......
Searching I discovered Pierre..........and the bits known of him........along with the popular idea he came from either Bourgeil or Montbeliard.
My search started with realizing that Bourgeil has no known Sire clan of any type.
In the beginning: I had a simple 12 marker test from my own father: and at the time 3 other Sires had their DNA posted......one up to 37 markers.....using all the samples at the time: they all showed Pierre as a common ancestor. This included Alberta Cyrs and 2 American samples.
Since that time: all have taken their samples off public display........I have only my early records to use now.
Before I knew too much about DNA: I could get only a feel of where this DNA should be:
I knew it belonged somewhere from Basque regions: up and over to Brittany, Normandy and into the British Isles........
Armed with this as background information:......I began a pure name search.
I thus went to Montbeliard: found the local Sire genealogists: and realized quickly from their direction that Pierre could not possibly be one of them: they have a near perfect record of each one born: there is no Pierre born to Jean Christophe, etc. and this clan tracks back to around 1100AD with near perfect records.
Next I sourced out the LeSires of Belgium and nearby French areas: who indeed were in the ironworks business: these were incredibly wealthy men...........I cannot yet completely exclude them as a source for Pierre...........
Then I began to track the Andre Sire lineage: I found the historical records of Loudun and Poitiers which has their family history tracking them back to Geneva Switzerland........and their DNA testing confirmed it.
I sourced out all the versions of the name in the La Rochelle region...........and found there are probably 3 key groups:
the De Sirés........of a more southern French or Spanish origin
the De Serres....again: a name tracking into southern France
the Suires: the Swiss
The habit of La Rochelle was to assign nick names: so a De Siré........can easily become a De Siret.......de Sirois.......de Sirreau........
The only group that spelled it Sirre: were actually Suirehs.......or Suyrets..........and they lived in a small group near St. Hillaire ...........two groups: one noble, one farmer
There is a small group of LeSers in Tours.........who seem to have moved north into Manche to form the LeSires of Perche and region........
Then I tracked the name via Normandy: and found
However in each case other than the De Sirrés.........they all seem to be Franks: Germans in origin
I travelled down the coast of Aquitaine..........and one finds many Suires.........getting to Toulouse: where we do find Sirre...........many of them.......but they should be Visigoths.....
I tracked the name back to Italy and De Siri............and further back in time as far as I could go.
I tracked all the LeSires of Picardy and related regions:.......using their genealogist: who says: no: no Pierre......
I tracked the name Sirre in Holland via their genealogists: who said: No.......not one of ours.
I tracked it to Norway and Sweden: but: not enough resources yet to make any determination.
I tracked every known version of the name that migrated to the USA in the same time frame:
I tracked it as De Syras in Scotland..........
I tracked all the Sears, Sires, Sirres, LeSueurs and Sayres of England..........
I tracked every available version of this name all over Europe, into Switzerland, Germany: all over the world...............to find a family for Pierre. Zero.
Every single time I hit a dead end...........no European Pierre Sirre so far........(although I have not been able to connect with a Langueduc Sirre yet to confirm: but this is a remote possibility anyway)
The only viable open door was the Sirres of northern Brittany...........where we do find a Pierre of the right age: but I have not been able to get a response yet from the keepers of this data.
All of the Sirre possibilities had to reconcile with the DNA or Acadian history.
Pierre had to be in a place to easily get to Acadia..........and a reason to go.
Next I had his handwriting analyzed: and it indeed proved it was French handwriting of his time line............but there is a hint in it that he could be a bit older than he said..........its more the handwriting of about a decade earlier.............but it was still French......and the style used by merchants, government officials, scribes......professional men.
So now I needed the name Sirre, western coastal Europe DNA, and professional handwriting to add up for Acadia...........coupled with the word armurier.
Now I had to study this ancient profession to see if I could find Pierre:........so I spent months researching the trade:............and tracked as many ancient guild records as I could get to find him...........zero.
So here I had a few possible Sirre connections: but nothing that added up to a French Pierre Sirre..........
So I turned back to using DNA............and I started getting not bad matches in Rouen.......associated with the Vikings............however deeper research led me to realize this families were probably Bretons who threw in their lot with the Vikings.
More and better DNA matches started showing up:...........
if they were French ones: they were all Breton ones.........like Pontbriands of St. Malo
and Meunier of Nantes
But otherwise I kept getting southern Irish hits along with some south west Scottish hits.........
That led me to have to study the entire history of Celt movement in pre historic France........and Ireland, etc.
Along the way: if I ran across anything even remotely similar to Sire I would chase it.
But at the end: where I am now: the absolute best DNA match for Pierre is with the Riney family of Tuosist Ireland..........30+ markers perfect match.
Whoever these Rineys were: it is indisputable Pierre is kin to them.
Armed with other strong DNA matches: a pattern began to show up:
all these names that harken back to Dingle and County Kerry...........
I noticed from census records and parish records that the OSheas lived next door to the Rineys........and the O Sullivans........
so I researched these clans........and there it was: SEER.......a branch of the Sullivan clan.....
There really was Irish Seers..........but they did not always use Seer as their last name......certainly less so modernly.............more so anciently.
And these Seers lived amongst all the same surnames that Pierre was matching up to.
I reanalyzed his DNA signature to find unique things...........and he has many: but they are nearly always only identified with SouthWestern Irish of this exact tribal base.
So then I said: well: what is the history of these people........and I studied and learned that in particular the O Sheas went to France in large numbers: educated there and joined the French military..............
while others from the general region set up shop in Brittany as merchant agents.
Now I had a reasonable story:
South Irish DNA
Merchant connections to the New World in general
Sirres in Brittany
Historical connections to Acadia
This is the most plausible story base I have been able to put together so far.........
I had always thought Sirre was the Anglicized version of Sire............but I now think Sirre is the Frenchified version of Seer.
And this puts us in Quimper: with the Sirre family.: that I could say is the most likely candidate as kin for Pierre in France...........other than potentially being in Paris itself..........
This research of mine does not close the book ..........but is the best profile of a potential location based upon what we know so far.
If indeed Pierre shows up as South West Irish modal DNA via your sample: it will drastically narrow the possibilities of where he came from.
If not: it will take us out of Ireland ...........back to either southern England or continental Europe .......and I will have to track back to Belgium and or Basque regions.
I have learned this rather unqiue DNA signature of his: is really quite limited as to where it clusters.........it is true: one could find perhaps one sample here or there any place in the world...........but in general: it should cluster,,,,,,with leftovers of ancient kin in specific regions.
That 10 at 390 especially reduces the odds of who he is............is a key identifier.......
So far though he shares about 8 of the unique marker values that the south western Irish carry...
The argument about where these people came from then is important to us:
they themselves say they came from the Gaulish south of France near Briancon........over to Basque regions; up to Ireland
Others are sure they are simple Belgics.........
So far the DNA supports the Belgic story.
If they had come from Basque regions........tracking back to Geneva or Genoa.......then I have to revisit the Sire lineages along this path.
If they are Belgic: I am quite content that they are pure Irish Seers of their own invention.
With what we have today: the evidence points to the Sirres of Brittany.........if French
and Irish Seer out of Boston........if he came into Acadia the way Roger Quaissey and the Grangers did........either as a run away slave or as a legitimate merchant...........but the Irish were so hated in New England.........it would be very hard to be a legitimate Irish merchant.
I do wish to add a bit about the Louis Sires of Acadia.........
The British and French records of the pre expulsion times state both Sire and Le Sire......and we know Pierre never used LE......nor did his kin.
Therefore I can assume that the Le Sire belonged to the Louis lineage.
I dont know how they know he is from Dunkirke............certainly the Belgic Le Sires were in this entire region: drifting down to Amiens.......back into Belgium.........a great number of them.
We do indeed have a later Louis Le Sire signing up for military duty and coming to Canada with the later Carignan soldiers.
Dunkirke was a naval base...........during Louis life: (he was a generation younger than Pierre)
It was a region that spoke Flemish.......not French...........and in general a good portion of Picardy and regions over to the eastern borders did not speak French.
Even Calais: where we also find LeSires: was only half French speaking:
Le Sire as a term in that region was a profession:........it referred to someone who made things from a pattern.....
(I supposed one could argue the Irish Soar or Seer being Builder might have the same root)
Le Sire was the name given to early: 1100s......iron workers..........those who would create a pattern and heat iron to make the fancy ironsworks shapes on churches.........
A great number of them from Belgium were imported into Amiens France for just this purpose.
In later years: as the cloth trade took hold: we find vast numbers of Le Sires in the clothing business: mostly all poor.......and leaders of the Huguenot movement in France.......in fact, some claim that Amiens cloth workers actually were the entire fire behind the Huguenot revolutions.
This pattern maker designation thus became a word to refer to all those who used patterns to make things...........so one could probably find many DNA patterns in the Le Sires.
One lineage of the Le Sires became fabously weathly with castles and ties to royalty: most were simple peasants.
Now Louis Le Sires parents include a mother of the name Rimbault........a name highly associated with Rouen......and of course we already had Rimbaults in Acadia prior to his arrival from Rouen regions.......
LeSire is a big name in Rouen as well..............
That these two names should be in Dunkirke is quite odd.......if they were: they would have to be attached to the military: navy.
The only things I have seen suggest that the mother was from Dunkirke..........and that Jean Sire married her there
Sire was not a family name anywhere in northern France.......only LeSire........using that Sire spelling..........
so the possibilities for Louis are:
a) he was born in Rouen of a fairly high family (especially to marry a Rimbault) but was with the military and got stationed in Dunkirke
b) he is a Picard Le Sire
Now I dont know if these Belgic origin LeSires were Franks or Celts...........no known DNA samples.
I have tried without success to encourage Louis Cyr family members to get a DNA test..........but perhaps with your Cyr site this could finally be achieved.
Your own DNA will not only confirm or deny the samples I have had to work with up until now:
it will confirm or deny this Irish origin.
I think it is an amazing gift to post your results when you get them: the standard will be set for descendents from now to thousands of years in the future as to who Pierre was.
A Basic Explanation of Genetic DNA as it Applies to Genealogy
December 3, 2010:
In my continued effort to understand the princibles of genetic DNA as it applies to genealogy, I asked Suzanne Sears (Co-Administrator of the Cyr Surname DNA Group Project, which I Administer), to provide me a _basic_ explanation of the process, as it pertains to Pierre Sire (my first ancestor) and my own DNA testing.
In part, my message to Suzanne stated: "Suzanne, I still have difficulty getting my head around how Pierre Sire can be traced, when we don't (obviously) have HIS DNA... and never will. Can you give me a _simple_ [actually, _very simple_] :-) explanation!"
Here is Suzanne's reply:
We DO have Pierres DNA.............You and Peter (another tested member of the Cyr Surname DNA Group)..........an exact copy..........thats why you two are nearly perfect copies of each other....... and you both descend from Pierre.
It works like this.............
Lets assume Pierre is one of 5 original men on the planet...........for now.
DNA is two spindles of thread...........
Those two spindles are the blueprints for making a human being.
The two spindles twirl around each other............
But if you break them apart:
you will get
one female spindle
one male spindle
So when Pierre took a wife...........
to make a new human being.........
His DNA spindle broke apart............into a male and a female portion........
The female portion was scrapped.........only the male portion would go forward to be used for the baby
His wife: same thing: her DNA broke apart.............
her female DNA
her male DNA.........
But now the male part is scrapped and only the female part goes ahead........
So we take the male thread from Pierre
the female part from Marie Bourgeois
and bingo: you have Jean Baptiste...........and Jean Francois, and Guillaume
Each one of these men carries that first thread from Pierre...............in a near perfect copy.......the odd mutation.
And every single male from then onwards:
always is using that same first thread of Pierre
So you today: are a mix of Pierres first thread and whomever your mother was.........
But Pierres original thread is in you............
and for every male for all time: down the Pierre Sirre lineage:
is a copy of Pierre..........
It never never never changes........not the male DNA............down the male side.............
same original thread used to make every single male for all of history
The question we dont know is: who did Pierre get his thread from.........who was his father...........
12 markers is a good idea of the basic white cotten thread
(using a picture)
that was the starting point anciently............
So using your imagination now
think back 1,000 years...........and there is a tribe somewhere in Germany of 10 men......
one of those men was carrying that thread..........
and spread it forward through sons to get to Pierre...............and now you and Peter
Pierre lives in you..............if he was here: even 400years later: your male DNA would be an identical match within just a small variation......
No one else on this planet would match Pierre Sirre better than you and Peter..........
Time makes little to no difference
Example: they found a cave in Germany with about 3,000 old skeletons: obviously from some kind of war
So on whim: they said: lets test people nearby..............within 30k..........to see who was here back then and who is here now
And they found genetic matches!!!!
People genetically related to these dead guys from 3,000 years ago: all still living in the same damn place.
Thats why DNA is valuable for geography: people really dont move all that much..........despite modern times.
Like you expect to find polar bears in the Arctic: but if you find one in the North West Territories: you arent too surprised: but it might be just a few.
Well people are pretty much like that too...............a few move: most dont shift far from their ancestral homes.
So using Pierres DNA we can without a doubt find where he came from:
and right now the best information is Flanders
possibly over to Belgium and Holland.........
This is his ancestral home base...........
doesnt mean he lived there in 1644.........only that most of his kin folk did.
Hope this helps a bit.........
There are no unique human beings: each of us is a copy of someone who lived before right back to 250,000 years ago.
Of the native women in Canada: they all come from just 5 original women: 250,000 years ago.
Each one alive today is a copy of one that lived then.
Heres an easier way to understand what I wrote in the previous email
A white thread in your left hand: a Male thread
A black thread in your right hand: a Female thread
Now twist and twirl them together=a new human being
Lets argue its a son.............
Now this son gets married and has a baby
His threads unravel...........and goes back to being separate threads
One white male thread
One black female thread
Just like it was when his parents got together and shared their DNA to make him......
His wifes DNA will do the same thing.........
she too has her DNA broken down into 2 threads........
one male from her Dad
one female from her Mom
So now we are going to make a new human.........
We will take the male thread from this original son
We will take the female thread from the new wife
(the rest is scrapped: the male dumps his female thread
the female dumps her male thread)
So now we have:
a white thread from the male son
a black thread from the female new wife
and they twist back up to make a new person............
the key point to remember though is:
That white male thread is the same darn white male thread this new father to be
got to begin with
He never got new white threads........
His son will never get new white threads.......
for the next 100,000 years:
all the males will reuse that same white male thread:
for every new male born
thats why your white male thread is a copy of Pierre...........
because its the only white thread he had to pass on.......
and he got it from his Dad
and he got it from his Grandfather
and all your sons will have that same white thread...
250,000 years from now:
All males that descend from Pierre will still be using that same white thread.......
It just keeps unravelling and then tieing back up as each child is born
just the female thread changes in the equation
since each new generation has a new Mom.........
And thats why we only use Male DNA to do the tracking with.............because its the same white thread since the beginning of time........with just a very few breakages or mutations along the way
Its only the female DNA that creates variation.......mtDNA..........
but we will never know Pierres female DNA thread.........because he never had any sisters that we know of..........and he doesnt pass forward female DNA........only his own male DNA.....
The male DNA never never changes.............
Its a recipe........that never changes............
So when they do DNA testing:
thats exactly what they do
they break the male and female threads apart:
and give you the outline of the male thread......
The numbers mean how many........
so for example:
At maker 390=23
It means: in that small space called 390...........there are 23 repeats of a chemical........
In my DNA at 390= I have 24 repeats of that chemical.........
Thats how we know we arent bloodline related............
Because Pierres thread carried 23 repeats
and its nearly impossible for that to randomly become 24 repeats in only 400 years.
The pattern of the thread repeats itself so nearly perfectly each time.
so on a tribal level:
only persons with 23 repeats at 390 share the same tribal background: the Frankish Germans
and I share a tribal background with those humans who had 24: .........the Celts
this is how they know that Germans and Celts were not the same race of people.......
When you review basic 12 marker tests for the numbers:
it is telling you how many repeats there are at each step along the way
13 23 14 11
step one: 13 repeats
step two: 23 repeats
step three: 14 repeats
step four: 11 repeats
Now they can tell you: that people with this exact pattern of repeated numbers:
lived in a certain geography at a certain time in history..........
they can track them backwards in time to the biggest concentrations of these patterns
where they are today
where they said they came from
where they were before
Mine is: 13 24 14 10.........and they can also tell you where that pattern was back in time.........
So while your people were somewhere in Frankish German territory
mine were busy in Celtic regions: specifically Ireland
These are called Clusters.........and certain patterns of numbers cluster in certain geographies
Just like Penguins: who have their own DNA are not found in the Sahara in general.........
but cluster in the Antarctic.........
And Pierres pattern clusters around Holland......some to the left and some to the south and some to the north..........
In particular he shares some unique marker repeat sequences
that are usually found in Flanders only...........
And thats what gives us our information
Hope this makes sense
Click here for more information on Pierre Sire
Click here for more information on genetic DNA
Jean-Baptiste Cyr Memorial Monument in St. David, Maine
(Installed for the first Cyr Family Reunion held in Madawaska, Maine in 1981)
The following portraits, were photographers (by myself) on my Grand-Parents Wall.
My Grand-Father Fred O. Cyr [April 18, 1880 - June 18, 1945]
Grand-Mother Alice Poitras [June 04, 1882 - December 09, 1969]
My Great Grand-Father Onezime (Aka Lezime) CYR [September 22, 1856 - January 29, 1911]
Great Grand-Mother Christine (Christie) BOURGOIN [May 09, 1855 - October 17, 1894]
Click here to view details of the largest Cyr Family in the world!
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